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Topic: Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow
Posted by: Tim Henderson
Date/Time: 24/01/08 22:41:00

The thread I have been following included contributions from  a commercial pilot who made the comment on the pics :

Further on the accident: new pictures just released show the aircraft with all lighting on, no RAT deployed, and the APU door shut just before landing, so the engines (or at least one of them) were probably still running at or near idle at the point the picture was taken. This may reinforce the fuel waxing or contamination theories. It seems highly unlikely that the independent FADECs, and the independent methods of transmitting throttle demands to the engines both failed at the same time.

He had earlier proposed fuel waxing as a likely major contributor:

I suspect that the first point of investigation will be fuel waxing, caused by exceptionally low temperatures en-route from China. The temperature at FL380 was around -70C for much of the last two or three hours of flight. The fuel regularly uploaded in China is Jet A1, which has a freezing point of -47C. With skin heating, the Total Air Temperature (TAT) (the ambient air temperature as modified by skin heating) would have been around -50C. The B777 tanks are a little better insulated than ours, but the fuel temperature would have been below -40C, I suspect.

Whether this would cause a problem would depend on the rapidity of the descent and how much opportunity the fuel had to warm up as the TAT rose. The tendency to wax would also depend how much water was present in the fuel (there's always some). Water drain checks would have been carried out in Beijing, but it wouldn't be the first time they hadn't been carried out correctly, or that insufficient water was drained. The effect of fuel waxing is pretty instant when it happens: a friend of mine lost all four engines on a Hercules from this, back in 1982. Luckily for him, he was in the tropics and the fuel was able to heat up sufficiently in the descent for a disaster to be averted - but not by much. They decended from FL270 to 5000' in the process of recovering the engines.


Entire Thread
TopicDate PostedPosted By
BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow17/01/08 13:33:00 David Giles
   Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow17/01/08 13:58:00 Martin Whaley
      Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow17/01/08 14:41:00 Thomas Barry
         Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow17/01/08 16:17:00 Peter Goodhew
            Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow17/01/08 16:29:00 Thomas Barry
      Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow05/02/09 11:46:00 David Darlow
         Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow05/02/09 12:15:00 Ken Munn
            Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow05/02/09 12:33:00 Richard Greenhough
   BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow17/01/08 16:25:00 Kevin Regan
      Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow17/01/08 16:36:00 Thomas Barry
         Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow17/01/08 17:06:00 Fred Bray
            Re:Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow17/01/08 17:24:00 Russell Baines
         BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow17/01/08 22:02:00 Kevin Regan
      Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow17/01/08 17:34:00 Martin Whaley
         Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow17/01/08 18:27:00 Ken Munn
         Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow17/01/08 18:27:00 Ken Munn
         Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow17/01/08 18:49:00 Richard Jennings
            Heathrow Airport should not be there in the first place17/01/08 21:15:00 David Giles
               Re:Heathrow Airport should not be there in the first place17/01/08 21:47:00 Tom Pike
                  The Keens are part of the problem and not of the solution18/01/08 00:10:00 David Giles
                     Re:The Keens are part of the problem and not of the solution18/01/08 08:49:00 Thomas Barry
         NATS conclusion on the third runway17/01/08 21:21:00 Tom Pike
            Re:NATS conclusion on the third runway17/01/08 21:59:00 Tim Henderson
               If Boris was the pilot17/01/08 22:45:00 Russell Peirs
                  Re:If Boris was the pilot17/01/08 23:52:00 Thomas Barry
                     Lee Jasper18/01/08 00:17:00 David Giles
                        Re:Lee Jasper18/01/08 02:00:00 Richard Jennings
                     Re:Re:If Boris was the pilot18/01/08 13:01:00 Claudia Jachtmann
   Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow18/01/08 00:50:00 Peter Eversden
      Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow18/01/08 09:20:00 Peter Goodhew
         El Al Crash in Amsterdam October 199218/01/08 10:41:00 David Giles
            Re:El Al Crash in Amsterdam October 199218/01/08 11:08:00 Stephen Pett
               777 crash landing18/01/08 11:45:00 Kevin Regan
            Re:El Al Crash in Amsterdam October 199218/01/08 12:30:00 Richard Jennings
               Re: Boeing on the A418/01/08 12:51:00 Verification Required
                  Re:Re: Boeing on the A418/01/08 13:22:00 Richard Jennings
                     777 crash landing18/01/08 13:58:00 Kevin Regan
                        Re:777 crash landing18/01/08 14:55:00 Richard Jennings
                           Re:Re:777 crash landing18/01/08 15:37:00 Jeff Gear
                        Re:777 crash landing18/01/08 17:50:00 Thomas Barry
                           Re:Re:777 crash landing18/01/08 18:10:00 Peter Eversden
                     Re:Re:Re: Boeing on the A418/01/08 14:01:00 Martin Whaley
                        Re:: Boeing nearly landing on the A423/01/08 20:58:00 David Giles
            Re:El Al Crash in Amsterdam October 199218/01/08 14:09:00 Martin Whaley
         Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow18/01/08 17:50:00 Peter Eversden
            BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow18/01/08 19:09:00 Kevin Regan
            Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow18/01/08 19:58:00 Colin Vaughan
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow19/01/08 13:28:00 Peter Eversden
            Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow23/01/08 21:00:00 David Giles
   Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow18/01/08 19:22:00 Peter Poulton
      Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow18/01/08 23:20:00 Richard Jennings
         Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow19/01/08 12:16:00 Paul Morris
            Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow19/01/08 12:51:00 Tim Henderson
            Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow19/01/08 13:33:00 Peter Eversden
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow19/01/08 13:44:00 Anneberth Lux
         Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow19/01/08 12:23:00 Jonathan Bingham
            Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow19/01/08 12:42:00 Peter Poulton
            Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow19/01/08 16:16:00 Richard Jennings
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow20/01/08 15:46:00 Peter Eversden
   Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow23/01/08 17:28:00 Kevin Regan
      this might help23/01/08 17:33:00 Russell Peirs
      Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow24/01/08 01:49:00 Richard Jennings
         Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow24/01/08 02:32:00 Jim Lawes
         Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow24/01/08 22:41:00 Tim Henderson
            Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow24/01/08 23:44:00 Richard Jennings
               BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow25/01/08 00:45:00 Kevin Regan
                  Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow25/01/08 02:07:00 Richard Jennings
                     Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow26/01/08 16:57:00 David Giles
                        Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow26/01/08 19:55:00 Richard Jennings
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow26/01/08 20:14:00 Michael Daley
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow26/01/08 20:14:00 Claudia Jachtmann
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow26/01/08 21:03:00 Colin Vaughan
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow26/01/08 21:49:00 Jonathan Bingham
                                    BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow27/01/08 00:26:00 Kevin Regan
                                       Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow27/01/08 17:17:00 Richard Jennings
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow27/01/08 10:13:00 Michael Daley
                                    Some unique pics27/01/08 13:17:00 Mike Smith
                                       Re:Some unique pics27/01/08 14:05:00 Tim Henderson
   Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow27/01/08 17:12:00 Len Skerratt
      If the Plane had been full it may have landed in Hounslow31/01/08 18:55:00 David Giles
         Possible theory for 777 crashlanding??01/02/08 17:44:00 Kevin Regan
            Re:Possible theory for 777 crashlanding??01/02/08 17:54:00 Martin Whaley
               Re:Re:Possible theory for 777 crashlanding??01/02/08 19:37:00 Tim Henderson
            Re:Possible theory for 777 crashlanding??01/02/08 21:51:00 Richard Jennings
               Re:Re:Possible theory for 777 crashlanding??02/02/08 10:31:00 Thomas Barry
            Re:Possible theory for 777 crashlanding??05/02/08 08:19:00 Dylan Reisenberger
   Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow05/02/08 05:17:00 David Lindsay
      Boeing warns of ice problem in some 777 engines04/02/09 20:54:00 Tim Henderson
         Re:Boeing warns of ice problem in some 777 engines04/02/09 23:20:00 Ken Munn
   Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runaway at Heathrow05/02/09 13:16:00 David Millar
      Re:Re:BA Flight Lands Short of Runway at Heathrow05/02/09 15:12:00 Richard Jennings

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