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Topic: For Guy: "It is perfectly obvious from the BBC link..." 
Posted by: Fraser Pearce
Date/Time: 13/03/08 20:09:00

Guy wrote:

"It is perfectly obvious from the BBC link provided above that there is nothing very revolutionary about this treaty: it seems to be aimed partly at just making an alliance of 27 states function slightly less clunkily..."

- True (to an extent).

Lisbon is evolutionary, not revolutionary. It's the EU agenda "moving forward" here - again to the detriment of national parliaments. That may or may not be a good thing but at least it ought to be recognised for what it is (it isn't).

The BBC link ain't exactly the most rigorous analysis though, is it? No mention of specific treaty clauses, no mention of which text is exactly the same as the original Constitution, nearly the same and which is new. It's on dodgy ground to judge a primary source by a flakey secondary one.

[Although it's probably not relevant to Will's BBC article, the Beeb has benefited from a £141 million loan facility from the European Investment Bank (EIB). The EIB is the EU's financing institution, bigger than the World Bank and IMF and is committed ” to contribute towards the integration, balanced development and economic and social cohesion of the Member Countries.”]

As for 27 states functioning "slightly less clunkily", that again may or may not be a good thing. The point is though that this 'streamlining' is to the detriment of individual nation states and national parliaments.

Article 33, for example, allows Lisbon to be self amending without the need for Intergovernmental Conferences - thus limiting the scrutiny of future changes. The removal of nine Commissioners means countries without a Commisioner are likely to have less influence at the top table. Article 2's 'division of competencies' shifts more power away from national legislators.

The biggie though is the change in the EU voting system. Pre-Lisbon, EU law had to jump three hurdles: 74% of the Council's weighted votes, 62% of the population and a majority of the 27 member states. Post-Lisbon, EU law will only face two hurdles: 65% of the population and 55% of member states. This means Lisbon removes the biggest check and balance, with all individual Member States apart from Germany likely to find it more difficult to block legislation (France and the UK, for example, lose a shade under 30% of their power to block legislation in the Council). 


Entire Thread
TopicDate PostedPosted By
Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 00:04:00 David Giles
   Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 06:47:00 Mark Evans
      Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 07:43:00 Colin Murphy
      Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 08:40:00 Paul Fisher
         Re:Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 09:04:00 Ben Willcocks
            Re:Re:Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 10:05:00 Malcolm Peltu
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 10:46:00 Simon Everton
   Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 10:16:00 Jonathan Bingham
      Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 10:31:00 Colin Murphy
         Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 10:54:00 David Giles
      Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 14:15:00 Richard Greenhough
      Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 16:05:00 Peter John
         Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 19:31:00 David Giles
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 19:55:00 Will Watson
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 23:03:00 Sam Hearn Cllr
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 23:18:00 Will Watson
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 23:49:00 Sam Hearn Cllr
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 23:49:00 Brian Coyle
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate11/03/08 00:06:00 Will Watson
                     Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 10:01:00 Richard Greenhough
                        Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 10:17:00 Jonathan Bingham
                        Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 10:21:00 Will Watson
                           Re:Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 11:55:00 Sam Hearn Cllr
                           Re:Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 13:14:00 Richard Greenhough
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 14:00:00 Martin Hime
                                 Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 14:12:00 Richard Greenhough
                                    Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 21:37:00 David Giles
                                       Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 21:51:00 Will Watson
                                       Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 22:32:00 Brian Coyle
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 23:01:00 Will Watson
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 23:11:00 Martin Hime
                                             Re:'Corrupt unelected bureaucrats'11/03/08 23:41:00 Richard Greenhough
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?12/03/08 09:17:00 Peter John
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 23:10:00 Jonathan Bingham
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?12/03/08 08:56:00 Sam Hearn Cllr
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?12/03/08 09:49:00 Will Watson
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?12/03/08 12:18:00 Richard Greenhough
   New European Directive12/03/08 00:12:00 Richard Greenhough
      Re:New European Directive12/03/08 09:59:00 Colin Jordan
         Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 10:12:00 Jonathan Bingham
            Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 10:15:00 Colin Jordan
               Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 12:04:00 Fraser Pearce
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 12:29:00 Martin Hime
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 17:14:00 David Fox
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 17:33:00 Will Watson
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 18:40:00 Jeff Gear
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 18:49:00 Will Watson
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive13/03/08 12:41:00 David Giles
                           Text of the Treaty of Lisbon12/03/08 18:41:00 David Giles
                              Re:Text of the Treaty of Lisbon12/03/08 22:02:00 Guy Lambert
                              Re:Text of the Treaty of Lisbon12/03/08 23:08:00 Brian Coyle
                                 Re:Re:Text of the Treaty of Lisbon12/03/08 23:38:00 Will Watson
                                    Re:Re:Re:Text of the Treaty of Lisbon13/03/08 12:51:00 Richard Greenhough
                                       For Guy: "This referendum debate..."13/03/08 20:07:00 Fraser Pearce
                                          For Guy: "It is perfectly obvious from the BBC link..."  13/03/08 20:09:00 Fraser Pearce
                                             For Guy: "...Moving forward our common European agenda..."13/03/08 20:10:00 Fraser Pearce
                                                For Guy: "...the Treaty also sets out a specific right and procedure for member states to leave"13/03/08 20:13:00 Fraser Pearce
                                                   For Guy: "...we did vote to go in..."13/03/08 20:17:00 Fraser Pearce
                                                      For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."13/03/08 20:18:00 Fraser Pearce
                                                         Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."13/03/08 21:38:00 Guy Lambert
                                                            Re:Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."14/03/08 08:05:00 Peter G Boardman
                                                               Re:Re:Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."15/03/08 13:44:00 Will Watson
                                                            Re:Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."14/03/08 19:01:00 David Giles
                                                               Re:Re:Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."15/03/08 01:18:00 David Fox

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