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Topic: Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate
Posted by: Peter John
Date/Time: 06/03/08 16:05:00

In my view, five reasons. 

Firstly, as others have said, it's a manifesto commitment by all three big parties.  It is possible to excuse politicians for breaking such a commitment if there is clearly a reason why it is impossible, or if circumstances have changed out of recognition, but that is not the case here. 

Secondly, public attitudes have changed in 15 years: my impression is that the public is much less deferential towards politicians and more confident in its own ability to make correct decisions. 

Thirdly, a long-ish debate on our place in Europe with all politicians committing to a position (in, out or semi-detached) is overdue.  Britain has never really been clear what it wanted out of the EU, which some say produces -80% of our laws, let alone how to get it.  As there may be no institutional reform for a while, this seems as good a chance as any to have such a debate. 

Fourth, you cite the precedent of Maastricht under a different government without a manifesto commitment, but don't forget that Labour held a referendum on whether there should be a mayor for Hartlepool - if that issue could not be decided in Parliament, why on earth can this one be?

Fifth, various European politicians such as Merkel and d'Estaing have been quite open that this is the Constitution with a minimum of changes necessary to avoid further referenda (except in Ireland).   Calling a referendum here would surely show that they cannot get away with this sort of fraud.  Having one here would also probably mean that the Dutch and maybe the French, Swedish and Danish people would have to be consulted.

Not exactly simple, I'm afraid.


Entire Thread
TopicDate PostedPosted By
Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 00:04:00 David Giles
   Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 06:47:00 Mark Evans
      Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 07:43:00 Colin Murphy
      Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 08:40:00 Paul Fisher
         Re:Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 09:04:00 Ben Willcocks
            Re:Re:Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 10:05:00 Malcolm Peltu
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Chiswick Councillors vote against the Tory manifesto and their democratic mandate06/03/08 10:46:00 Simon Everton
   Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 10:16:00 Jonathan Bingham
      Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 10:31:00 Colin Murphy
         Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 10:54:00 David Giles
      Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 14:15:00 Richard Greenhough
      Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate06/03/08 16:05:00 Peter John
         Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 19:31:00 David Giles
            Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 19:55:00 Will Watson
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 23:03:00 Sam Hearn Cllr
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 23:18:00 Will Watson
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 23:49:00 Sam Hearn Cllr
               Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate10/03/08 23:49:00 Brian Coyle
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto and her Democratic Mandate11/03/08 00:06:00 Will Watson
                     Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 10:01:00 Richard Greenhough
                        Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 10:17:00 Jonathan Bingham
                        Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 10:21:00 Will Watson
                           Re:Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 11:55:00 Sam Hearn Cllr
                           Re:Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 13:14:00 Richard Greenhough
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:How did we get into Europe ?(Ann Keen Votes against Labour Party Manifesto)11/03/08 14:00:00 Martin Hime
                                 Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 14:12:00 Richard Greenhough
                                    Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 21:37:00 David Giles
                                       Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 21:51:00 Will Watson
                                       Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 22:32:00 Brian Coyle
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 23:01:00 Will Watson
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 23:11:00 Martin Hime
                                             Re:'Corrupt unelected bureaucrats'11/03/08 23:41:00 Richard Greenhough
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?12/03/08 09:17:00 Peter John
                                          Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?11/03/08 23:10:00 Jonathan Bingham
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?12/03/08 08:56:00 Sam Hearn Cllr
                                                Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?12/03/08 09:49:00 Will Watson
                                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Has the EU prevented war ?12/03/08 12:18:00 Richard Greenhough
   New European Directive12/03/08 00:12:00 Richard Greenhough
      Re:New European Directive12/03/08 09:59:00 Colin Jordan
         Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 10:12:00 Jonathan Bingham
            Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 10:15:00 Colin Jordan
               Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 12:04:00 Fraser Pearce
                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 12:29:00 Martin Hime
                     Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 17:14:00 David Fox
                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 17:33:00 Will Watson
                           Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 18:40:00 Jeff Gear
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive12/03/08 18:49:00 Will Watson
                                 Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:New European Directive13/03/08 12:41:00 David Giles
                           Text of the Treaty of Lisbon12/03/08 18:41:00 David Giles
                              Re:Text of the Treaty of Lisbon12/03/08 22:02:00 Guy Lambert
                              Re:Text of the Treaty of Lisbon12/03/08 23:08:00 Brian Coyle
                                 Re:Re:Text of the Treaty of Lisbon12/03/08 23:38:00 Will Watson
                                    Re:Re:Re:Text of the Treaty of Lisbon13/03/08 12:51:00 Richard Greenhough
                                       For Guy: "This referendum debate..."13/03/08 20:07:00 Fraser Pearce
                                          For Guy: "It is perfectly obvious from the BBC link..."  13/03/08 20:09:00 Fraser Pearce
                                             For Guy: "...Moving forward our common European agenda..."13/03/08 20:10:00 Fraser Pearce
                                                For Guy: "...the Treaty also sets out a specific right and procedure for member states to leave"13/03/08 20:13:00 Fraser Pearce
                                                   For Guy: "...we did vote to go in..."13/03/08 20:17:00 Fraser Pearce
                                                      For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."13/03/08 20:18:00 Fraser Pearce
                                                         Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."13/03/08 21:38:00 Guy Lambert
                                                            Re:Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."14/03/08 08:05:00 Peter G Boardman
                                                               Re:Re:Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."15/03/08 13:44:00 Will Watson
                                                            Re:Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."14/03/08 19:01:00 David Giles
                                                               Re:Re:Re:For Guy: "...a convincing majority..."15/03/08 01:18:00 David Fox

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