| Topic: | Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | |
| Posted by: | T P Howell | |
| Date/Time: | 03/07/16 00:29:00 |
| Is response to Miss Pemberton and Miss Moran more serious points made in this thread: - to assess the effectiveness of EU environmental (etc) laws, you have to understand the way that EU law works. This is a serious issue, and one of the many questions that has been completely misrepresented in the Referendum Debate. For example, the unelected European Commission does NOT pass laws within the EU. The Commission can propose (not make) laws, in a similar way to the UK Civil Service. The Commission is fully accountable to the elected European Parliament (and so arguably more democratically accountable than our Civil Service). EU laws are made by the Council of Ministers (the representatives of the governments of the member States) and the elected EU Parliament (including, bizarrely enough, Mr Farrage). So the assertions: i) that EU laws are made by faceless bureaucrats; ii) that the EU is undemocratic; and iii) that there has somehow been a transfer of sovereignty from the UK to the EU; are all fundamentally wrong. EU laws either take the form of “Directives”, or of “Regulations” – but in both cases approved by the Council of Ministers and the Parliament. The difference is that a “Directive” is effectively a direction to the national governments to implement certain laws, where the national governments have the choice how the Directive is implemented (the UK government often adopts a “cut and paste” approach), whereas a “Regulation” has what is called “direct applicability”, meaning that it takes effect within member states without the need for separate legislation (on the basis of the Treaties agreed between the member states). It is therefore very difficult to understand Miss Pemberton or Miss Moran’s argument that EU Environmental laws have been unsuccessful. This assertion is flawed for several reasons. In the case of EU Directives, the law is not enforced by the EU, the relevant law is enforced by the member state because (as explained above) the provisions of the Directive first have to be separately implemented by separate legislation by each member state. (This is where the European Court of Justice comes in, if a challenge is raised within a national court as to whether a Directive has been properly implemented). For example, looking at the EU laws protecting wildlife: - EU “Directive 2009/147/EC of The European Parliament and of the Council of 30 November 2009 on the conservation of wild birds” (known as the Birds Directive) is implemented into English law by The Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981 (etc), and it is the responsibility of the UK Government to enforce the Act. EU “Directive 92/43/EEC on the Conservation of Natural Habitats and of Wild Fauna and Flora” (known as the Habitats Directive) is implemented in the UK by The Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2010. It is simply nonsense to argue that the EU’s record on the “conservation of wildlife and fishery habitats…. is abysmal”. The statement shows a fundamental lack of understanding as to the way that EU law works. Firstly, the Directives only set minimum standards. It is open to national governments to impose higher standards if they chose to do so. So it is meaningless to try and compare the effectiveness of EU Directives with national legislation; Secondly, the national legislation is based on the EU Directives anyway, so (unless a higher standard has been applied) the national law reflects the EU law; and thirdly, it is (in most cases) the national governments’ duty to enforce compliance, not the EU’s. I could go on and on a list all of the EU Directives protecting the environment (such as the Renewable Energy Directive (2009/28/EC) which requires each member states EU satisfy at least 20% of its energy needs by renewable energy by 2020; The Air Quality Framework Directive 2008/50/EC, which requires member states to measure air quality, and sets air quality requirements (with the aim of saving 400,000 premature deaths a year caused by air pollution), the Industrial Emissions Directive 2010/75/EU which sets out rules to prevent air, water and land pollution; the “WEEE” Directive (2012/19/EU) requiring the recovery and recycling of electrical goods (which yield more precious metals per tonne that mines), and transfers the cost of doing so onto the original producer or importer), etc. etc. This is no doubt, by another name, the “red tape” we have heard so much about. I can assure you that we would have a lot more “red tape” if each country implemented its own laws unilaterally, and a company wanting to trade throughout Europe had to take advice on and comply with multiply different laws in different countries, instead of complying with one common standards. The member states of the EU, working together collectively through the EU, have made enormous advances on the protection of the environment. It is, again, frankly nonsense to argue that the EU has been ineffective. Of course, I am sure that it could have done more. The nature of the EU is that it has to work by consensus between members, which can be a slow process (except where qualified majority voting applies, introduced at the insistence of Mrs Thatcher in the Maastricht Treaty to accelerate decision making – perversely presented in the referendum debate as a complaint that the UK sometimes gets outvoted (but in fact only on a very small number of occasions –because of the UK’s voting weight)). I would therefore be very interested to hear from Miss Pemberton and Miss Moran why they think that EU policy has been ineffective – and to tell us which the policies they think have failed, with their explanations why they think so. As for animal welfare, the same principles apply as I have outlined above. As for specific policies, I question whether (for example) any of the following measures would have been adopted across all 28 member states if they had not been so through the EU (here the source is the UK Animal Welfare Party):- EU wide ban on veal crates (2007) Lisbon Treaty (2009) recognising animal sentience EU wide ban on battery cages (2012) EU wide ban on sow stalls (2013) EU-wide sales ban on cosmetics tested on animals (2013) – going on to influence debates in India, who also adopted similar legislation in June 2013. Once again – the EU sets MINIMUM standards. It is open for national governments to adopt higher standards (except where to do so artificially obstructs the free movement of goods). As pointed out in my earlier post on this thread (even if somewhat flippantly), Miss Moran’s objection to EU environmental protection laws because they are only enforced through fines is also abject nonsensical. Firstly, the purpose of any legal sanction is to prevent transgression, and if it is success in doing so there is no need to impose the sanction; and secondly, how else can the EU ensure compliance? You can’t arrest or imprison a country (like you can an individual), the only thing you can do is to fine them. This raises two more fundamentally important points: - Dirty air knows now borders, it does not have to pass through passport control to affect another country; Likewise, fish, wild animals and wild birds are no respecters of national frontiers. In some matters we have to work collectively with our neighbours to be effective. - If we do not set common minimum standards, then we risk one country trying to achieve a short term competitive advantage by permitting lower standards, thereby reducing its costs of production. This challenge applies to much of EU law, such as protection of employment rights (so a company cannot move its production to a country with a lower level of employee protection to reduce its costs), financial services capital adequacy and conduct of business standards, and provision for customer remedies, etc. Common standards removes the risk of a “race to the bottom”. This is also an argument to limit variations in the rates of VAT (already implemented) and to standardise rates of corporation tax (under discussion, to prevent for example Amazon avoiding taxes by (theoretically) supplying into the UK from Ireland or Luxembourg, or other ways for a company to “arbitrage” different tax rates in different countries). Hopefully, this explains the rationale for collective decision making and legislation by individual countries through the auspices of the EU where the issues in question are trans-national. Apart from the slogan “take back control” being nonsense because we are already in control, even if we chose to “go it alone”, then so could the other 27 member states. Would we achieve the same standards of protection across the whole EU (whether environmental, animal rights, workers’ rights, consumers’ rights, protection from monopoly and abuse of dominant position by multinational companies, etc. etc. etc.) if each of the national governments tried to undertake those tasks on a unilateral basis? Anyone who truly believes that we could do so has no concept at all about the way that globalisation has changed the world in the last two or three decades. From a business and finance perspective, national borders are becoming increasingly irrelevant, as we saw from the global financial crises in 2008. If multinational companies operate transnationally, then governments have to do so as well. We cannot stand like Cnut against a changing world. Apologies for the excessively long post – but Miss Pemberton and Miss Moran has raised very serious issues that it is important to address. |
| Topic | Date Posted | Posted By |
| Hey! | 01/07/16 16:28:00 | Jill Merrett |
| Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 16:32:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 16:38:00 | Jill Merrett |
| Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 16:41:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 16:54:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 17:08:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 18:30:00 | Georgina Flint |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 18:46:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 16:47:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 17:01:00 | Jill Merrett |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 17:11:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 17:47:00 | Adrian Irving |
| Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 17:10:00 | Anita Blake |
| Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 17:15:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 17:34:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 17:39:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 18:00:00 | Carl Wynne |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 19:23:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 17:27:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 17:42:00 | Dan Evans |
| Re:Re:Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 18:46:00 | Richard Greenhough |
| Re:Re:Pants on Fire | 01/07/16 17:56:00 | Will Watson |
| Re:Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 19:09:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 19:13:00 | Will Watson |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Animal Welfare and the Eu | 01/07/16 20:42:00 | Carl Wynne |
| Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 17:38:00 | Cristina Bur |
| Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 18:04:00 | Jill Merrett |
| Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 18:10:00 | Will Watson |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 18:16:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 18:17:00 | Jill Merrett |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 18:38:00 | Anita Blake |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 18:40:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 20:49:00 | Claire Moran |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 20:50:00 | Claire Moran |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 20:55:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 18:43:00 | Carl Wynne |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 19:06:00 | Richard Greenhough |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:56:00 | Carl Wynne |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 18:16:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 19:06:00 | Robert Fish |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 19:12:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 01/07/16 20:37:00 | Alan Clark |
| Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 01/07/16 20:46:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 01/07/16 20:54:00 | Claire Moran |
| Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 01/07/16 20:59:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 01/07/16 21:04:00 | Michael Brown |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 01/07/16 21:06:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 01/07/16 21:15:00 | Alan Clark |
| Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 01/07/16 21:00:00 | Paul Morris |
| Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 02/07/16 09:32:00 | Richard Greenhough |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 02/07/16 10:44:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 02/07/16 10:59:00 | Richard Greenhough |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 02/07/16 11:44:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 02/07/16 18:09:00 | Alan Clark |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Not 'hey' but 'oh' | 03/07/16 11:13:00 | Richard Greenhough |
| Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 21:16:00 | Katrina Black |
| Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 21:19:00 | Michael Brown |
| Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 21:21:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 21:37:00 | Susan Kelly |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 21:42:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 01/07/16 21:45:00 | Paul Morris |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 09:36:00 | Richard Greenhough |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 10:04:00 | Paul Morris |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 10:38:00 | Carrie Reichardt |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 10:49:00 | Alan Clark |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:00:00 | Paul Morris |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:18:00 | Michael Robinson |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:28:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:32:00 | Alan Clark |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 10:48:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:05:00 | Richard Greenhough |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:30:00 | T P Howell |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:43:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:46:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:51:00 | T P Howell |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:56:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Hey! Coooeee TP Howell | 02/07/16 13:13:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Hey! Coooeee TP Howell | 02/07/16 14:20:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 14:54:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 16:48:00 | Will Watson |
| Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 16:57:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 17:08:00 | Will Watson |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 17:46:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 17:48:00 | Will Watson |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 18:12:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:49:00 | Carl Wynne |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 11:50:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 12:03:00 | Paul Morris |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 12:18:00 | Vanessa Smith |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 13:05:00 | Richard Greenhough |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 14:32:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 12:16:00 | Jill Merrett |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 12:31:00 | Alan Clark |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 13:05:00 | Paul Morris |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 14:39:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 12:03:00 | Ian Fillingham |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 12:16:00 | Paul Morris |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 14:16:00 | Michael Brown |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 14:43:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 15:17:00 | Madeleine Hazard |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 17:13:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 15:50:00 | Claire Moran |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 15:53:00 | Carl Wynne |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 15:56:00 | Claire Moran |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 16:01:00 | Carl Wynne |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 16:20:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 16:26:00 | Carl Wynne |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 16:49:00 | Loraine Pemberton |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 17:18:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 18:02:00 | Alan Clark |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 18:10:00 | Carl Wynne |
| Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 15:15:00 | Glenn Manoff |
| Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 15:19:00 | Madeleine Hazard |
| Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 16:45:00 | Michael Brown |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 16:53:00 | Ian Fillingham |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 17:20:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 18:15:00 | Jill Merrett |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 18:29:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:telling bad jokes | 02/07/16 18:47:00 | Adrian Irving |
| Re:Re:telling bad jokes | 02/07/16 19:04:00 | Adrian Irving |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Hey! | 02/07/16 18:52:00 | bobby osborne |
| Loraine dirty laundry | 02/07/16 19:58:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Loraine dirty laundry | 02/07/16 21:22:00 | Carrie Reichardt |
| Re:Re:Loraine dirty laundry | 03/07/16 06:56:00 | Adrian Irving |
| Re:Re:Re:Loraine dirty laundry | 03/07/16 10:40:00 | Donna Fraser |
| Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 02/07/16 21:28:00 | Carrie Reichardt |
| Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 02/07/16 22:11:00 | Michael Brown |
| Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 02/07/16 23:03:00 | Ian Fillingham |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 00:29:00 | T P Howell |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 00:38:00 | Claire Moran |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 00:47:00 | T P Howell |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 01:13:00 | Paul Morris |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 13:27:00 | Claire Moran |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 14:00:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| not hey, but 'I dunno' | 03/07/16 07:56:00 | Alan Clark |
| Re:not hey, but 'I dunno' | 03/07/16 11:30:00 | Michael Brown |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 06:14:00 | Ken Munn |
| "The British Public has had enough of experts" | 03/07/16 11:27:00 | T P Howell |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 11:29:00 | Brian Coyle |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 12:22:00 | T P Howell |
| Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 12:35:00 | Matteo Castagna |
| Re:Loraine - liar liar pants on fire | 03/07/16 14:41:00 | John Whitworth |
| Re:Re: Help is coming | 04/07/16 10:13:00 | Carrie Reichardt |
| Re:Re:Re: Help is coming | 04/07/16 10:36:00 | Richard Greenhough |